Growing up as a Lutheran, I never got fully into the fire and brimstone preaching of other denominations. Instead, I got beliefs presented to me as if they were inherently valid, like learning about gravity, light, or other natural phenomena. This is important, because it gave me the illusion of an incorrect doctrine I preserved myself against: threatening other people. It didn’t register that I actually was partaking of similar ideas packaged differently.
It amounted to lying about what love is.
A little while ago, Bruce Gerencser wrote this post regarding Franklin Graham’s Facebook post capitalizing on celebrity deaths to threaten people with Hell. To me, it’s a reminder of only one part of a culture that thinks these threats are an act of love. These threats are like yelling at someone for drinking and driving, or issuing a stern warning about a foreseeable danger. They’re trying to prevent you from suffering harm.
That still doesn’t justify what Mr. Graham did. The thing is, the threat only carries any traction because it’s an unseen consequence. If someone told me there was a trespasser behind my house, I can go check to make sure. Hell is something nobody can really find out about; it’s the monster lurking invisibly behind you.
Now that I’m no longer a Christian, I can see better that making vague threats isn’t an indicator of what love is. When I love someone, I don’t terrorize them into conformity. I have to respect their autonomy as a human being and operate from there. The only things I can demand of them are things which I have the right to demand. Inspiring fear is not an intrinsic right (that I’m aware of).
After deconverting, it takes a while to figure out how this has messed me up.
For other people who doubt, the process can be simple or complex. Mine is complex, because of the complex systems of belief I shrouded my old faith in. To others that have stopped believing, I have to say that this is a normal part of the journey away from religion. The process will involve emotional highs and lows; all that anyone can do is ride them out.
Perhaps the most difficult thing for me to learn is that I don’t have to feel remorse or pity for what I once believed. It wasn’t me that convinced myself to believe all people are worthy of destruction by a deity. Indeed, that guilt is merely another facet of my old faith structure still trying to convince me that maybe it was okay. Instead of putting those judgments on it, I just have to accept that it was. Good and bad are meaningless when it comes to this.
I can be happy and maybe even grateful that I’ve learned to abandon such beliefs. Whether it’s overt like Mr. Graham’s Facebook rant, or covert like my Lutheran upbringing, I don’t have to feel inspired to terrorize the people around me to agree with my existentialist views. People don’t have to be worthy of punishment or threatened by an unseen monster. I don’t have to convince people they’re flawed and miserable.
What actually persuaded you from believing that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world?
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Hey there!
That’s a very good question. I’d have to say that it wasn’t just one thing that persuaded me to not believe in Jesus anymore. It was a slow process of realization, and a completely unintended journey. Some of it was painful, but other parts involved simply reflecting on the fact I didn’t hold the religious beliefs I used to.
If I could point to a beginning of this process, I would say that it started at some point during a very bad depressive episode I had a few years ago. That episode pushed me to my limits in being able to hold onto my faith. I still did to a certain extent, but later things happened which revealed I was looking at things in a different light. From there, I eventually came to terms that I just didn’t believe any of it anymore.
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I understand the potential hardships of your life and I can only imagine what you went through but trusting the process that Jesus allows you to go through is simply for his glory and for your edifying. I’ve also went through depressed moments but you cannot allow satan and his wiles to overtake you. Jesus is able to deliver you from any situation.
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Travis, how did you distinguish between Satan and Jesus?
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Well Jesus is the son of God, the creator of all, the savior of the lost and most importantly my Lord. satan is a fallen angel, now a demon who is the deceiver of world.
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. . . ahh. . . and how can you be sure the deceiver isn’t (your) god itself, trying to ‘teach’ you something?
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My deepest apologies, Carmen. I butted in.
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The word Belief. In the Christian faith, I am told to believe the good news of Christ. Christ is God but also became flesh to save the world of only those who are lost can be saved if only they believe in him. My assurance is the Holy Spirit within me.
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JZ, you never butt in – you collaborate. 😉
Travis, you mean your assurance is what you TELL yourself.
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Oh no, The Holy Spirit speaks to me and through me. The Word of God says so, and I believe his Word.
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. . .ahhh. . . so what does (your) god SOUND like?
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I’m not here to be antagonized but the Holy Spirit is a person who dwells inside of every believers and follower of Jesus Christ, so I just know and when others become saved, they’ll know too.
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That’s the narrative line, yes, but I think Carmen was asking how can you distinguish between the works of Satan and Jesus? How do you know whose hand is guiding? Set-ups can be frightfully crafty and multilayered: good very often begets tremendous evil.
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Good question, the answer is the guidance of the Holy Spirit, satan can distort the things of God but satan cannot create nor save. Only God can. Satan does masquerade like an angel of light but he isn’t light. Only Jesus provides true light.
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Travis, can you prove from your “Good Book” that Satan even exists? Please tell me where he first appeared. And don’t say in the Garden of Eden. That was a serpent … there is NO indication in the scripture that the serpent was “the devil.”
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Firstly Lucifer is the name he is referred to but he was in the garden of Eden and possessed a snake. He possesses human and angels still to this day.
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Firstly Lucifer is the name he is referred to but he was in the garden of Eden and possessed a snake. He possesses human and angels still to this day.
Travis, do you realise you’ve just proven the Christian narrative to be wrong? The claim is, of course, that man fell, corrupting the world, but you’ve just conceded that Lucifer (the “most beautiful” of all Yhwh’s creations) was already corrupted before Eden, before Adam. By the chronology of your own narrative, Creation had failed before Yhwh created man. Yhwh, therefore, cast man into a diseased world.
Would you not call this an act of evil?
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Of course not, Lucifer was exiled to earth but he was sent there due to his pride. Adam and Eve was deceived by Lucifer after God gave direct instructions to not eat of the forbidden tree. Angels cannot be saved, only human beings.
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No, Lucifer was sent to hell that was created for him, before the earth, before man. Creation had failed.
Why would Yhwh cast man into a diseased world?
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Earth wasn’t diseased, you won’t find that anywhere. Earth was perfect until the deception was believed.
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Travis, it`s the chronology of your own narrative.
Lucifer, Yhwh’s most beautiful creation, sinned. Hell was created for Lucifer, not man. What was (supposedly) perfect was broken before Yhwh turned his hand to creating Adam.
The question stands: why would he do such a thing?
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I don’t have all the answers and is anybody says they do, they are lying. Jesus don’t want us asking useless vain questions, just believe in his Word.
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It`s the chronology of your narrative. It’s not open to interpretation.
Deal with it as you must.
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I simply know what I believe, and I want everyone to follow Christ but that’s the Lord job to prick your heart.
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You should perhaps read your bible… and pay careful attention to the chronology of events.
By that chronology, your god, Travis, is maximally evil.
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It’s not my Bible. It’s the Holy Scriptures and if you aren’t a believer you won’t understand, you only get understanding from the Holy Spirit and if you aren’t a believer, he doesn’t dwell within you. Just believe and ask Jesus into your life.
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Chronology of events.
It’s not open to interpretation.
Good night.
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If you don’t have the wisdom from the Holy Spirit, you won’t ever understand.
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That wisdom stops you from understanding the basic written chronology of a narrative you’re supposed to follow?
Interesting.
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I don’t understand what you’re referring to just like you’re not understanding what I’m referring to. Darkness and light won’t ever coexist together. The greater one will rule. Just follow the Lord.
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With all due respect, you’re not actually saying anything here, Travis. You’re a parroting a narrative, throwing words down, but not substantiating those claims.
How do you know it’s Jesus’ hand and not Satan’s?
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I believe it’s Jesus. It’s by my belief in Christ as Lord that I’m saved. Only believers will believe in him. It’s not my job to convince you, I’m only suppose to love and proclaim the good news of Christ.
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Saved from what?
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Eternal damnation and torment. Followers of Christ will be with him after judgment day when he comes back but those who have rejected him will spend eternity being tormented.
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Saved, in other words, from what Jesus will do to you if you don’t “love” him… Precisely as the meme at the top relays.
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Exactly. You just don’t have belief. Choose Jesus before you become a reprobate.
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Please don’t preach. Conduct a rational conversation.
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I must proclaim Christ, it’s my duty
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OK, so you can’t conduct yourself in a rational manner.
Your choice.
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Rational to you could be different from my rational.
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Here`s another way of putting your words
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You choose
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. . . ” I’m only suppose to love and proclaim the good news of Christ.”
I see. Well, you’ve illustrated the theme of SB’s post nicely. You know, the Christian beliefs that lie about love. It’s not LOVE to try to convince people they must be saved from an imaginary evil spirit. That’s manipulation.
You’ve been hoodwinked, Travis.
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That’s your opinion, not factual.
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No Travis. It’s an OPINION to believe in imaginary spirits. A fact is something you can prove.
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The Holy Spirit is real, if you don’t follow Christ you will spend eternity in torment.
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Atta boy! Threaten torment to those who don’t think just the same as you do! See what SB meant now?
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Don’t disrespect me. I’m not a boy, I’m a Man. It’s not a threat, it’s a choice for all to choose. I can’t threaten anyone, I’m only proclaiming truth from the Word of God.
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Yes, the word of Yahweh – as you’ve explained – which threatens people with eternal damnation if they don’t believe in him. . . now does that sound like love or coercion??
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Love to those who believe. Evil to those won’t don’t. Wisdom comes from The Holy Spirit so you must invite the Lord into your life before it’s too late.
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I’ll tell you again, Travis. Your verbiage on this thread has exemplified SB’s contention – that christian beliefs LIE about love. It’s conditional, as you’ve told us several times now. You can worship a bully if you like, but most of us have realized what the truth is – that Yahweh is a made-up deity and deserves no more recognition than any of the other thousands of gods before it.
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That’s your thoughts, I have spread his Word so it’s only up to your choice now.
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Hmm. . .logic and sense or silliness and superstition? What’ll it be??
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That’s blasphemous to the Lord but it’s up to the Godhead to deliver you.
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Pardon me, Travis but it sounds more like bullshit.
Like I say, you’ve been hoodwinked. Big time.
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It’s not polite to say pardon me then use profanity. Only God knows.
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There’s nothing polite about threatening people either. But of course, you cannot see the contradiction. Like I say, you’ve been hoodwinked into thinking you are doing a good thing. Vague threats are not an indication of what love is, as SB has stated. I am wondering if you even READ what SB wrote. In any event, you certainly didn’t think about it, that’s clear. You came here to deliver a sermon.
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Thank you
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Travis, since you’ve been so free with advice on this thread, perhaps you’ll consider this:
John Zande asked you some riveting questions, which you ignored. Nan has offered information, to you which you really should give some thought. I am thinking that perhaps the points they raised really DO resonate with you but your brainwashing is apparent in your discourse with me – you think that if you just parrot what your pastor bellows out on Sunday morning, it’ll do the trick. You’ll stay firmly entrenched in your indoctrinated state and fail to see the logic of what others point out. At some point, one must think for oneself. Forget about the figment of your imagination and actually try THINKING. It’s empowering.
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I don’t have a pastor. I’m taught by the Holy Spirit.
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Oh and I forgot – both Nan and JZ have excellent blogs; very informative and challenging. You might want to peruse them, I think you’d get your eyes opened. Who knows? You might even ‘see the light’! 🙂
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Satan I rebuke you with all authority
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Oh my, Carmen. Now you’ve gone and done it!
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I’m sure I’ve been called other things, Nan. But Travis, if you had to pick a make-believe entity, I’d rather be called a siren. 🙂
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Subbing
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I dunno, JZ, I don’t spark the debates like those that happen on Nate’s blog. But then again, CS can’t show up, and Unkle’s never managed to make the trip.
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Sweet Neptune, you don`t want Unkle swimming in your pool!
Interested to see where Travis is going.
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Travis, “Love me OR ELSE” is emotional manipulation. Think about it. That’s not love, that’s a threat.
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BTW, the.name Lucifer actually means “mornng star” or “bringer of dawn.” Does that describe satan?
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“Inspiring fear is not an intrinsic right (that I’m aware of).” Love this!
I like what you say about the struggle to feel remorse over losing what you used to believe. I “deconverted” in the sense that I left one school of Christian thought for another, but I still tend to look at that previous outlook as “right” and where I am now as “wrong,” because they taught me for so long that ending up a skeptical, liberal, doubting Christian is no way to be Christian. I appreciate your reminder that this is part of the process, and it’s not good or bad; it just is. Thanks for encouraging this doubting believer 🙂 this is important stuff.
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Great post. I have in recent years (as I have become more discriminating in the motivations of Christian pressure) found that frightening people into believing is emotional manipulation and quite self-serving. It is kind of like folks that engage in this type of behaviour can say, “I told them, don’t blame me” and then happily lay their head on their pillow without so much of a thought about their means of doing so, and the spiritual abuse that may have occurred. I guess for some the end (their own self righteousness) justifies the means?
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Great post! This is one of my biggest problems with Christianity and one of the issues that made me start questioning it.
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Thank you!
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